Actually, it wasn't me who brought up the whole 70's thing, it was Badger. I just tried to get us out of it.

We are in full, complete and total agreement on what used to be. I don't talk in what used to be's, I talk in what we are doing today.

I also am, and have been clear on the numbers you present. I have been from the start. As in one of our first postings together, I am in no way saying that the physics, the calculations of btu to btu somehow are different now..let's all give that up now.

I just can't take the attempts to beat down an industry that "some" hydronics installers, who have probably never even seen the low voltage elements up close, throw numbers around and make claims without actually installing ANY of it and say that it's not possible to have an electric infloor system work as cost effectively as hydronics. I've seen it. I've installed it. I have happy clients who have said "I am so much more at ease with this system than I was with my water system".

Now, drop the cost of crude down to less than a $25.00 bbl again, and electric is toast! (sorry for the punn) However, do you really feel that there's relief from this out there somewhere?

Technology is putting all their resources into finding better ways to generate, and bring down the cost of electricity.

relief for oil? I don't think there will be relief, no. A lot of people felt that way in the 70's too though, so I'm open to the idea that I might be wrong.

But wood, solar, and geothermal (electricity at as much as 3 or 4 times the production per kwh, IF INSTALLED PROPERLY of course) will still be viable options. and solar to electric to heating is a really inefficient transfer path. So I don't see hydronics going away any time soon.

But there is a bigger niche for electric than ever before, absolutely!

Dear Badger,
I agree with you that lot of people who installed electric boiler would have come and complained about high electricity bills. That is exactly my point, electricity cost is higher that other fuel costs, that is quite clear hence if you will run hydronic system with electric boiler than you wold be burning hole in your pocket because what I feel hydronic does not utileses energy it is using as efficiently as electric heating system. Actual Efficiency of hydronic systems is less that actual efficiency of an electric system. With better thermostat controls electric radiant heating systems are becoming more efficient in terms of actual efficiency.The reason is easy zonning and better control of reducing energy wastage in areas not in use. I read a little about Hydronic system and saw that there are may sophesticated systems available in the market who are also ablle to do zonning in hydronic system . But my concern is that hydronic system in itself is quite complicated and with new system they are becoming even more complicated and that fact that the Hydronic people are trying to achieve capability of proper zonning and sophesticated systems are comming in the market in itself shows how imprtant proper zonning is for the Actual efficiency of the heating system and here where electric radinat heating systems score. Hydronic heating Industry is comming up with new more sophesticated systems but with sophestications it is bringing need of better maintainace ( ie more maintanance cost)because of more valves to operate and also it has more moving parts to replace at some point of time or the other. Electric sysems are bocomming better and cheaper and Hydronic systems are also improving but the improved systems are becomming more and more expensive. Electric systems installation costs and installation times are comming down each day with new systems . I dont know about hydronic .
Hence my point of view is that the home owner should have some idea of available systems both hydronic and electric , pros and cons of both he should know and then he should decide. Here what I see is that since hydronic installers are more and most of them do not have much knowledge about the electric radiant heating system and they straight away tell the home owner that they should not think about the electric system as it will burn there pockets. I personally feel that Hydronic people should start giving both options of electric and hydronic to the customer without bias and then let home owner decide . and I am sure that that they will soon find there opinion about electric radiant changing .
Many big Companys manufacturing hydronic system have started offering electric systems also, Why? think about it.

Dear Rob,
The difference in 70s system and todays system is the increase in Actual Efficienciy of the system.( I am only talking about radiation sysems and not baseboard systems as convection systems are inefficient then radiation systems). In those times the thermostats were manual type. the electric system was also installed just like a hydronic system running through out the house using single thermostat where ever possible .and the system was used as storage type just like hydronic system was used and due to that we got huge electricity bills since energy was not uilized properly. lot of electricity was used up in bringing the big thermal mass to required temperature and then it was difficult to use the stored heat efficiently because of lack of controls and lack of zoning,
In todays system there is no need of thermal mass in most of the systems the elements are installed just beneath the tile. we can do proper zonning. even create 2-3 zones in a single big room or hall to use heat efficiently. In a big hall we can make centre of the hall one zone and area near the walls other zone .heat loss near the walls is more and person generally uses the centre space more. hence the temeperature of the zone near the wall can be kept at lower temperature than the main centre zone. This will increase Actual efficiency drastically. This is one example in present systems we can improve Actual efficiencies of the electric radiant system by using more thrmostats and creating more zones. This can be easily done in electric system but is quite difficult to achieve in a hydronic system.
earlier since fossil fuels were very cheap, the inefficiencies of hydronic system were ignored but in last couple of years the fossil fuel costs have more than doubled and the hydronic systems are not that lucrative any more if we compare there extremely high installation costs as compared to electric radiant systems and also notice that they require regular maintenance other wise there efficiency will further deteriorate. and they need regular parts replacement ( I don't know the frequency but moving parts will wear out and will definitely need replacement some time).
I feel that there is lack of awareness about the electric radiant heating system. and people dont understand how they can be more efficient. If electric radiant heating system installations are properly planned in view of keeping heat loss minimum and proper zonning is done keeping in mind that we have to focus heat where people are and we have to keep the temperatures minimum where people are not then people will be amazed to see the efficiency of electric radiant heating systems.

in recent time the fussil fuel costs have more than doubled
since fossil fuels are also used in producing electricity electricity costs are also going up
but electricity is also being produced by other renewable sources like sun ,hydro ,wave , neuclear ,Wind. Electricity produced by them is much cleaner and also cheaper and generation costs and generation capacity is increasing regularly with improved technologies.
Infact very fast development are taking place in solar and Wind.
Wind is silently increasing it share of electricity production. Just google and see how fast wind electric is growing.
with all this one thing everyone will agree is that ration of Electricity cost/fossil fuel cost is coming down drastically and will continue to to come down in the near future also.
With this scenario there is not much choice of fuel left for us to choose from.

Hi Tefkot,

Re: the 70's system question.

I'm not sure I follow you. It sounds like you are basically saying that the difference is in design, not in the components (which i would understand, if so). Is that correct?

That's fine, if so. It does reduce the "simplicity and predictability" argument of electric though. That is, you can still get less than optimal results if an untrained installer is putting the system in and doesn't, say, do these 3 zones per room techniques you're talking about.

I'm not saying it balances that out entirely, electric would seem harder to screw up for sure, just making a note of it; if you're going to assume the hydronic systems are installed suboptimally, it's only fair to note that the same thing can happen to electric, to some degree at least.

Naturally it's hard to put a number on the range of risk there though and again I imagine electric has the edge.

as for moving parts breaking in hydronic systems, modern components have very good lifespans. stuff does need to be replaced eventually, but it's generally quite awhile.

for what it's worth I agree there needs to be more awareness of electric systems and I'm finding the discussion informative and fun, once we get past the marketing talking points

Dear Rob,
What I am saying about 70s is that at in that period the difference was of both design as well as the components.
If you store a cup of hot coffee in a thermas and then open the thermas after 24 hours chances are you will not get hot coffee. all the heat will be lost with time. if we heat the coffee and straight away drink it then we will find the coffee hot. In the 70s the aproach was mostly the earlier one ie the heat was being stored.
todays aproach is quite different.
The advantage with electricity is that we can design good systems and can install them quite easily and also control them quite easily which is not possible ( or is very difficult) to achieve in hydronic system.

I have skimed over this post and let put in my two cents
First when a homeowner calls a heating contractor he is calling for forced air or a boiler contractor - not a Electrician to heat the home
second - You are right Hydronic guys think they cure cancer. that their heating is the best - that is because they have not come across a forced air job done right. ( we actually do both, and I prefer forced air unless there is a reason, The advanages of forced air are clear period.
but back to your question, What happens when a element breaks - do you warranty replacing the flooring and what is your actual warranty?
Second can you use your electrical heating on a gen set if there is a power outage - you can run a boiler and a furnace.
Plus can you set the temp down on the electrial to have a longer run time so you do not damage flooring - The way I see it if you set the thermostat at whatever temp and the thermostat calls for heat you will have full wattage at the floor, ( all electrical floor systems I have come across are too hot in a large area.
When we install a radiant system we monitor the slab temp because most homes have different flooring like granite - hard wood - tile - dry pack, and depending on room and homeowner require different temps.
The main reason I wrote here was the fact it is what the customer wants and is comfortable with that is being quoted. now that you have all agreed that a BTU is a BTU when can we argue forced air over radiant
hopefully helpful.
One more thing Have a bad contractor install a system and they will hate the system - havea really good contractor install a system the customer will be happy no matter what the system is.

Dear Hopefully hopefull,
It is nice to get your response to this post as you have raised many questions in a different perspective and this adds much more meaning to the whole discussion.
First of all I would say that when we compare two different systems we have to assume that other parameters are the same.
for example if we want to compare a forced air system and radiant underfloor system then we have to assume that they both have been installed by good contractor . If we would assume one installed by good contractor and other by bad one then we cannot compare them properly.
you said:-
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First when a homeowner calls a heating contractor he is calling for forced air or a boiler contractor - not a Electrician to heat the home
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Since at present in most of the houses there is forced air heaiting or hydronic heating hence people know only about forced air or boiler contractor but as people will be more aware of electric underfloor heating and ask the contractors if they can install electric systems then many contractors will learn about electric heating system installations an maybe many electricians will become electric heating system contractors.

With the advancement of electric heating cable manufacturing technologies companies are giving warranties from 10 years to full lifetime waranties. In US this technology is in nascent stage but in Europe it is very popular and in UK at persent it is groing at more than 30% an there many companies are now offering lifetime warranties because the element once layed does not require any maintanance and does not break . in case of some report of element failure, then there are independent repair companies who repair the element and prepair the report on cause of failure. If failure is manufacturing defect manufacturer bears cost of all repairs ( including flooring etc), if failure is due to improper installation the installer bears the cost and if failure is due to improper handeling by the home owner then the homeowner bears the cost.
This thing is yet to develop in US but will soon develop as electric heating will pick up pace.
Regarding what happens if there is power outage I would ask what happens to boiler if there is shortage of gas ot if wood finishes in the wood boiler. What happens if some valve of the hydronic system fails. the system have to be stopped unless the valve is replaced. If the suddenly the power souce is in short supply then you cannot do anything yes you can run the heating cable on genset. you should have a right capacity genset.

you wrote:
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Plus can you set the temp down on the electrial to have a longer run time so you do not damage flooring - The way I see it if you set the thermostat at whatever temp and the thermostat calls for heat you will have full wattage at the floor, ( all electrical floor systems I have come across are too hot in a large area.
When we install a radiant system we monitor the slab temp because most homes have different flooring like granite - hard wood - tile - dry pack, and depending on room and homeowner require different temps.
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The older Thermostats used in electric radiant heating were based on detecting room tempearture and neglected the floor tempearture. Maybe you have experienced those old systems.
The present thermostats have a floor sensor that senses the temperature of the floor. if you set floor sensor temperature to say 85 deg then the thermostat will cut off as soon the floor tempearute reaches 85 deg .hence to maintain this 85 deg the heating system the system will not need to run continously but will run for few minutes an then stop and when the temperature drops again from set limit it will again run for few minuts and stop maintaining a uniform floor temperature. for different floorings different heat requirements will be there to maintain the temperature to 85deg an hence the time of running of the system will varry with different flooring but each flooring can be easily tept at the desired temperature level. The advantage of electric system is that when required it can give the full amount of heat ( wattage) to exactly the area who demaded it and as soon the requirement stops it immidiatly stops the supply by switching off hence resposnse time is much faster to the needs of the room.


The customer will only want the products they know about if they dont know about a product they will never ask for it however good it is. If there are thrre systems available and customer only knows about two then he will ask for only those two products and decide from them only unless someone tells them about the third product which is also available in the market.
regarding our agreement a BTU is a BTU, yes a BTU is a BTU we can with 100% efficiency make a BTU of heat out of a BTU of energy but the main question is which system is efficiently using this BTU of heat for comfort heating. We have discussed a lot about this in another post "electric heating types" http://radnet.groupee.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8771001563/m/2101003663 you can check this out and you will understand what I an talking about.

The other big factor that is rarely factored in is maintenance. I agree that old systems were quite reliable. However anyone who services high efficient boilers can tell you they are service nightmares. I started explaining to customers that they should factor in $250 a year service for a radiant system. In a tightly built home this is a major expense compared to the additional energy cost of electricity. Plus I don't expect most condensing boiler to last more than 12-15 years.

Dear Morgan,
You are absolutely right maintenace cost should be considered and added into the systems cost.
Infact I personally feel that cost of a heating system can be divided into these different segments:-
1) product cost ( including all the parts of the product)
2) Installation cost ( including labour raw material etc)
3) Maintainance cost.
4) Running cost.

the first two ie the product cost and installation cost are the one time cost required in the start.
and the third and fourth are the recurring costs.
Generally what I feel Huge inphasis is given just on the fourth factor ie the running cost and the other three are completely forgoten or not given enough weigtage believing that low running cost will compensate for higher cost of the first three costs.
But that is not the case always.
If we factor in the first three costs into the runing cost of the system to get actual running cost then we would be amazed to see that in many cases the actual runnign cost will be quite high in hydroninc system .

You're forgetting the structural changes/costs required to allow for the installation of the tubing in the floor. All too often, these costs are not given to the homeowner as part-in-partial of the hydronics system.

Let us start again with the true cost of fuel. For every new project I determine the heat loss of the structure, then determine the cost per therm of all available fuels.

All costs should be weighed in of course. I am not anyone who works on condensing- Mod/Con boilers, but I do work on them almost exclusively. Mod/Con boilers have a life expectancy 20 years; that is longer than the average furnace. I have found ALL of the recent Mod/Cons to be very reliable if properly installed. This was even true of the old Glowcore boiler!

As to maintenance: like all gas-fired appliances the manufacturers insist on annual maintenance but rarely get compliance. If you pay $250.00 per year - a reasonable estimate - you probably won't call for service until you don't have heat. Though I send out service cards every spring, most of my customers won't call until they think something is wrong; some are going on 5 years!

Though I design systems for customers all over North America, here in Minneapolis my boiler clients pay twice as much per therm for electricity as for natural gas. At 8000 degree days you have to come up with a lot of misinformation to sell a refined and expensive fuel like electricity to a fellow who has clean, cheap, fuel piped right in to his house.

You will note that I have not made up any doomsday scenarios about electric heat. I might mention that the electric systems I install and maintain cannot be any more easily repaired than hydronic systems, should the need arise.

Exaggeration rarely improves an argument.

Hi Badger
To avoid these "exaggerations" your claiming, would you mind answering a few questions so we can better discuss the "argument" that I prefer to call discussion.

You must have "Maintenance Contracts" with your clients who choose to have them. What is your charge for this service?

On your topic of "repairing electric is no easier to fix than hydronics"; have you installed any low voltage systems? I admit that the line voltage systems can be tough to fix. I choose not to install them for just that reason. If you didn't drop a toilet bowl on the tile and can see the break, the problem is tracing the break through the shielded wire and the "issue" was usually caused by a third party. I have personnaly never seen a mfr defective wire. I have, however, repaired a few low voltage electric systems that were installed improperly. All I needed was a tic tracer to find it. You can find a break in a low voltage system wire or screen within 1sf (or smaller) and remove only the tiles that require the exposure of the element so it can be spliced back together with a simple butt splice and crimper. The only peripheral damage is the replaced tile(s). What happens when you have a leak in the hose or fitting? What tool do you have to find the source? How is it traced if the water runs to a point lower than the break before seeing the water?

You mention that you've installed and maintain electric radiant. How many required service? What was the problem? How did you fix it? Most importantly, what is the electric cost per kilowatt hour where you are?

Those reminder cards must create good income for you. I send them out too but...what for?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Warmsmeallup,

Dear Badger,
We are here to discuss the cost aspect of the underfloor radiant heating system:-
1) product cost ( including all the parts of the product)
2) Installation cost ( including labour raw material etc)
3) Maintainance cost.
4) Running cost.

When you are talking about fuel cost you are only talking about the 4th point . You have not even mentioned a bit about the 1st and the second part and the 3rd one the maintanence part also you have put the blame on the customer that they dont take AMC . You offer them AMC but most of them dont take it , if they will take it then tey only will have to shed 250 USD/year.
With electric underfloor you dont need an AMC . the elements today are so good that Companies are ofering lifetime warantees on them. once installed they will never need a service . will never fail. will never need replacement of part.
The only cases in which some repair is required is improper installation or accidental breakage due to drilling through wire etc. but these cases are very rare. If en electric heating cable company start taking AMC of even USD 50 per year then they can make huge bucks just by AMC alone. But they will not get any clinent as people who install electric underfloor know about reliability of the products.
In the first point ie Product cost. the Hydronic system's cost is much higher as compared to Electric radiant system. Even in big installatione it is 3-4 times high or even more.
The installation cost ( part two) is also much high . and if we consider retrofit job then it is even higher as structure needs to be changed to acomodate those thick pipes ( ar rightly told by warmsmealup) . hence installation cost is almost 10 times higher than that in Electric radiant .

you have taken a span of a hydronic system as 20 years ( based on boilers life . I personally feel 20 years boiler life is quite high) then how many parts in the hydronic system will ned replacement in this 20 year span on an everage and what will be the cost of each part. and what will be the cost of changing that part. if we factor all those things then the actual maintanance cost will come out to be very high .
and when we will factor the first three aspects into the runniing cost then we can imagine ourselves what will be the actual running costs.