I have a Munchkin 140 and the bottom if is wet. The insulation is soaked, and small amounts of water is dripping out of the unit.
Is this normal?


The inside of the burner chamber seems to have a lot of moisture/humidity in it.
Is this normal?

I just replaced the igniter because the unit wouldn't fire, and had a code F09. I checked the exhaust for blockage, and the condensation hose for blockage, both are fine.

I do not know why the bottom of the boiler is wet. This is the second season I have had the unit, and these are new things I am encountering. The unit functioned fine last winter, and the unit runs throughout the year, because I have it hooked as my hot water heater also.

hello Stout,

I moved this to the general bulletin board, so it would be visible to general participants. Hopefully someone is familiar with these symptoms over here.

quote:

The inside of the burner chamber seems to have a lot of moisture/humidity in it.
Is this normal?

No. Check the spot on the boiler where the relief valve elbow screws in. That sometimes leaks at the o-ring.

I know you think your condensate is flowing properly, but it probably isn't. Clean it out well.

Sorry, I got in a hurry and copied/pasted the wrong quote.

The burner chamber is where the condensate comes from, so yes it is normal.

The insulation being soaked is what is not normal. Check the location I mentioned earlier.

F09 codes are almost always condensate related in some way shape or form. What can happen is the condensate starts to back up in the boiler, then the refractory gets wet. When the refractory gets wet, or the condensate pools too high, the flame rectification shorts out. As the boiler sits there in lockout, the condensate slowly drains out and everything dries up. Then, someone hits reset and it fires right up.

Just a guess but I would say your boiler is probably sitting on the floor, no stand or blocks.

If you look in the IOM manual you will see that one of the that was hopefully done was a combustion, if it wasn't it should be done (it will help your boiler burn cleaner much like a car tune up.) The gap on the ignitor should be the same as 2 quarter held together to light properly.

another common problem is the Burner gasket to check this, fire the boiler press and hold down the S4 button this gives the milliamp read out for your flame sensor it should imediatly jump 2.0 or higher, if it starts low and steadily rises you nned to clean or replace the flame sensor, if it moves up and down irraticly (Like My Spelling) you need to replace the burner gasket

Munchkins sometimes leak around the areas of the pressure switch, pressure relief valve, or the return temp sensor in small but consistant way that shows up as wetness in the bottom of the boiler look closly in these area,

Or as the mantra goes call your heating contractor.

Ps you have to press the S4 botton until you see D7 this flashes backand forth between D7 & the milliamp reading on the display

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stout Construction:
I have a Munchkin 140 and the bottom if is wet. The insulation is soaked, and small amounts of water is dripping out of the unit.
Is this normal?


Have you actually cleared condensate with purge blower on (disconnect low volt molex) block flue, also descaled heat exchanger with CLR or Rydlime? Checked burner refractory and target plate for signs of moisture indicating failure of the refractory parts as well as replaced the burner gasket. Has boiler also been adjusted to proper CO using a combustion analyzer?

I was surprised to find leaks in my new Munchkin too… Not two years old and two different leaks with six different visits from my HVAC guy to find them, no kidding.

Another thing that came as a shock was the maintenance cost. In my area a good plumber with boiler experience is anywhere from $65 to 90 per hour. Anyway, my former HVAC guy's estimate for maintenance was anywhere from 4-8 hours, pending what we found after opening the fire box. So, less than two years into the lifecycle and I’m into it for $750 after replacing the target wall, gasket and ceramic refractory (don’t have my book with me so going by memory on the nomenclature).

Now, to be sure, next year I’ll do my own maintenance and hopefully won’t have the same parts list, but doggonit, who’d a thunk a person could land themselves three or four hundred dollar maintenance bills annually for their new boiler and be living with leaks from the bolt-on components at this rate. I know three people in my area alone who have similar leak issues.

I’m told that the maintenance is not as crucial with natural gas as with propane (propane being dirtier fuel) although the OEM manuals state ‘once a year’ if I remember correctly (my bad, I didn’t read it to start with) but that is of little comfort for someone who was looking for anything but a high maintenance solution. The last HVAC guy I spoke with told me my build up on the coils (which caused the condensation damage) (and yes, my condensate line was still flowing) was not from Propane but from not having the combustion dialed in… so go figure. Not exactly an exact science but an expensive one.

Propane from my dealer jumped from $179 in August to $275, which has me thinking electric. But I’m afraid to start over, and understand there are modulation issues with electric boilers anyway.

I was high on hydronic heat and am now committed, actually loving the heat itself but for the mechanical issues.

All that said, I guess my next move (and my advice) is to make sure my combustion is dialed in, as a previous entry suggested.

John your experience sucks, and I truely feel for you. The bad thing though is that it really sounds like a bad installation.

The CO should be dialed in on the first day.
The refractory should last for years. The $5.00 burner gasket does develope leaks and should probably be replaced every 2-3 years, but it should only take about 45-60 minutes to take it apart, flush out the heat exchanger, change the gasket, and reassemble.

Properly installed, they run well, and alst a long time. Sorry for your bad installation.

I have to concur with my esteemed colleague "guest". Combustion analysis is critical for condensing boilers and has been mandated by manufacturers since the late 1980s.

Installing condensing boilers without proper set up is malpractice and not worthy of this honorable trade.

Annual maintenance for a condensing boiler in a metro area is typically $250.00 to $300.00 plus parts. However, this assumes proper installation of the boiler and distribution system.

I have worked on many mod/cons - less than a year old - that show no evidence of proper setup e.g. a hole drilled for combustion test or installation record filled out. This is unacceptable and gives the product and the industry a black eye.

Hint: You can rent a combustion analyzer and buy a suitable pH meter and refractometer for a few hundred dollars.

Having to do proper startup, re-pipe or total removable is challenging and satisfying, but also frustrating, knowing the customer doubts the wisdom of his purchase.

This sad state of affairs can only be turned around by the manufacturers themselves. More encouragement must be given to reps, distributors and installing contractors to seek a secure specific installation qualification.

To my mind the cure is simple and straightforward. In a word: CERTIFICATION.

First, offer free factory training for qualified installing contractors. Their incentive to dedicate three days "minimum" to this certification process would be to actually certify "document" their training on the factory web site for the consuming public to see. This certification must be to a particular product line say "Ultra" rather than the more generic Weil McLain. Further an automatic extended warranty should be given to the homeowner once a factory certified technician submits the installation sheet.

A manufacturer could allow those whom through personal dedication or previous training qualify to test out of the training (or each of the 3 days thereof) by means of a factory-administered test. Perhaps the RPA could be host to such testing at our various meetings.

I am fully aware of the legal hand wringing that goes on at corporate over certification. Admittedly it will take some courage to implement such a plan. However, the evidence is clear that the present lack of action is leaving we in the field to nothing but reaction.

It seems to me that we as mod/con advocates have one of the best solutions to high fuel prices but still represent less than 1% (guessing for lack of evidence) of the home heating market. It pains me to see both contractor and consumer besmirch this innovative and incomparable technology while the demand still outpaces qualified supply.

But hey, I admit to being a ModCon zealot.



MA

I have a Munchkin 199, getting F09 code, d7 reads .7 HTP tech guy said it should be 3.8 to 4.1. Does that mean bad probe? bad ground? Any input? Thanks ! Dave

The probe is basically just a piece of metal. Rarely goes bad. Take it out and clean it with a brillo pad or something.

Or the burner door gasket is shot and the flame is throwing off the flame rectification or the unit needs to be cleaned out because if you have crud in the heat exchanger the condensate won't drain and it will get wet inside and cut out. It probably cuts out at the low fire. I experienced a 5 year old unit that would run fine in test mode but in heating mode it would cut out at the low fire and the d7 was .4 to.5. Munchkin just sent me (comped) a new 925 controller and the circuit board used in the Phoenix units that has a low fire boost hopefully to take care of the problem I'll let you know. JB

The problems that are popping up on this post are the same ones we are having with munchkins, what we have noticed that there is deposits like coffee grounds that plug the coils and the traps- with the trap so close to heat source it drys out on hi heat demand- I have tried a auto flush system into the vent to flush the trap daily - but I can not figure out what the deposits are, the boilers are set up to specs and I have tried going up and dowm on the CO readings with some success on the lower side. Every condensing boiler has this problem and reg service will prevent any problems or shut downs. but the Munchkin needs so much service - two calls a year to service - now if you have wet insulation check all the joints but mainly the trap connection - but what it could be is the belly which the condensate collects in before the trap may have pin holes from condensate not being removed because the trap is plugged. I do not sell Munchkins but for some reason I get recommended for serving them, and so I am only going out to ones that don't work so my view on these is not a true reading of what is actually going on unless the installers will not service them- I have heard all rumors as to what the coffee grounds are - compressor oil - sulfur(which is what makes the most sense) or dirt from air intake. trouble is ther is no signs of this in the screen at the gas valve or in the burner which would act like a filter. so if anyone else has had a problem like this could you post an answer please.

I replaced the new controller (phoenix controller) and the boiler runs smooth and seems more quiet if thats possible. The low fire boost keeps the unit running at the initial firing, so far so good.JB