With the upcoming release of the Tekmar Gateway equipment, does anyone have ideas how to prep for this eventual adder?

Laying out a mechanical room for controls seems to be daunting enough, but knowing we will "Eventually" be able to retro-fit internet access via the currently installed TN4 system leads me to want plan ahead for that eventuality.

TN4 boiler control and zone managers located in the mechanical room, but locate the 482/483?...
And what about the Mac equipment and server? What has anyone considered for this?

Regards,

Paul

Paul,

Nice to see you picking up the Gold Star for the Vacek residence. Incredible work!

We were given a presentation of a working Gateway™ at Tekmar’s booth on Thursday. They say it’s going to be available “very soon.” Apparently you can place the Mac Mini up to 30 feet away from the controller. That’s the longest length of USB cable you can use before the “signal deteriorates.” If the home office is within that range, I would go ahead and run the cable during the rough-in stage if at all possible but, there’s no reason you couldn’t have the server in the mechanical room as long as it doesn’t get too hot. Have a phone jack wired into the mechanical room as well. Personally, I’d like to see phones installed in every mechanical room. How many cell phone minutes do we use down there?

quote:

They say it’s going to be available “very soon.”

Not to be negative, but don't hold your breath. I don't want to get into why, but I've been told it's probably another year until it gets released.

Actually, I spoke with Tekmar extensively at REX. I am now confident we won't see any more year long delays. Of course, things have a way of happening with software. But it sounds like things are moving along there and I just might have even seen some working stuff... real working stuff... in action.

However, you're going to need to know some basic networking and router setup stuff. We anticipate Mac Minis, or older used macs being used.

And congratulations on the best in show award Paul!!!!!

Well I hope you're right, but what I've been told is that their original programmer never came through, and they had to pretty much start over with another software vendor.

Take it for what it's worth (basically gossip, but well informed gossip). Write this date down on your calendar (8/2707), as we'll soon see. I hope I'm wrong, BTW.

well I heard something like that too. But that was awhile ago, and some stuff I might possibly have played with seemed pretty functional...

The golden rule in anything software related though is it's all vaporware until it's on the shelf, cause you never know...

I sincerely hope that they come out with something nice. The basic architecture of the Gateway has me concerned, though. Most people who design a system with this sort of management interface use an Ethernet port for the network connection, not USB, and design it so that it can communicate with any standard web browser on any type of computer--Mac, PC, Sun, etc., etc., etc. This arrangement allows you to connect to the standard network in the building using up to 100 meters of standard cat 5 cable to any available hub or switch port, and allows you to operate the device from any computer, anywhere on the network, including remotely.

The difference in parts cost between a USB port and an Ethernet port is minimal--less than $5.

The fact that they apparently have not discovered the industry-standard way to do these things, and are designing something that is considerably less flexible, is rather disturbing, and does not bode well for what to expect from them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SolarPowered,

Yeah I don't know about all that other stuff, but I wholeheartedly agree about the un-userfriendlyness about it. I know you Mac users love your machines (Rob), and thats great, but to force everyone else into one seems rediculous. I was just on Walmart.com, and they have a PC for $348.00, which has way more than you would ever need to run a system. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to buy a Mac for anywhere close to that? I guess I don't really know though. It seems crazy to tell a customer that he needs to spend two grand (??) BEFORE the equipment costs.

Or is it much less?

any web BROWSER can interface. So you'll be able to log on to a system that is on the internet with whatever computer you use now, as far as I can tell.

However, you need a mac SERVER to get it up on the internet in the first place. This is the computer that the system itself plugs into.

We are mac partisans around here, but seriously, a new mac mini can be had for $500, or you can find a local apple reseller to get used hardware for low, low prices.. think $200 or so, like the two I have humming here 24/7 running file and database servers! no need for a brand new $2000 desktop Pro model here (save that for the office!! ) .

If it were an additional $500 controller, no one would bat an eye, right? Considering DDC is what, $10k and up? $500 for a controller with an apple on it isn't that much comparitively

I agree ethernet/CAT5 would have been better, as the distance limitation of USB is a concern... either the gateway will have to be in or near the office, or the computer in or near the mech room.

However, then you'd have to use an ethernet port on the computer, and most low end computers, even macs, don't have two ethernet ports (though mac's higher end models do). So you run the gateway into the computer using USB, so you can run ethernet out of the computer and on to the internet through your modem or router. This actually makes computer selection simpler.

From what I understand, the mac was chosen because it has limited hardware configurations which will keep tech support much simpler... So all things considered, with the inexpensive mac options out there, partisan or not I think it's a fine choice. Though, admittedly, it would be nice for people to be able to use that 5 year old wintel box laying in the closet for something!!

edit: my only concern is to run anything like this properly, the installer or owner is going to need to know something about networking to set up a router for the home network. It's not horribly complicated, but if configuring computers is not a strong suit for an installer, it's just one more thing to have to learn.

Ah, much more reasonable. One more thing for me to learn though , as I've never navigated a Mac.

Yeah, that part is an issue, but I think it would be an issue with any OS, unless you are a "power user" normally. don't be afraid, Macs are easy

From what you are describing, they still could have made it far more simple. Most of the industrial ethernet devices I've used only need their IP address assigned. Some even have switches to do that. So, set the IP address, plug in the cable and browse from any PC using any browser.

And, if it's a remote location, plug in a wireless access point at the device, and your PC can be anywhere within range of the access point.

I don't understand why they need the Mac in the middle as a server? In the end, I think that will be a headache for everyone, including Tekmar, compared to letting their device set right on the ethernet. Built in wireless would be even nicer for those retrofit jobs!

quote:

Originally posted by NRT.Rob:

If it were an additional $500 controller, no one would bat an eye, right? Considering DDC is what, $10k and up? $500 for a controller with an apple on it isn't that much comparitively

However, then you'd have to use an ethernet port on the computer, and most low end computers, even macs, don't have two ethernet ports (though mac's higher end models do). So you run the gateway into the computer using USB, so you can run ethernet out of the computer and on to the internet through your modem or router. This actually makes computer selection simpler.

You don't need to use a port that's directly on a computer. Any port on your router or any of your switches will work just fine. That's the beauty of using a standard Ethernet interface.

And if you don't have any spare ports around, you can get a hub at Fry's for about $20, and very slightly more for a full switch.

quote:

From what I understand, the mac was chosen because it has limited hardware configurations which will keep tech support much simpler... So all things considered, with the inexpensive mac options out there, partisan or not I think it's a fine choice. Though, admittedly, it would be nice for people to be able to use that 5 year old wintel box laying in the closet for something!!

But with Ethernet, you eliminate all of that. No "server" is required at all. You just plug straight into the network, with no intermediary.


It seems quite silly for their Gateway to need an additional gateway (the "server") in order to get to the network.

Good points.. hard to say!

maybe we can get tekmar in here after it launches to discuss some of the decisions made. I'm sure they don't want to broadcast too much of how it's all working at this point though.

Thanks for your interest in tN4.

The tekmar gateway (483) requires a pair of 18 AWG wires to connect to each tN4 communication bus. That means system with a 420 or 421 need one pair of wires, the 422 needs two pairs, and the 423 potentially up to 4 pair (depends if you are using all buses). You can also use the gateway in tN4 thermostat networks that don't have a central reset controller. The 483 then combines all the messaging of all the buses and sends them via USB to a Mac computer (Intel chipset only, no PowerPC!).

The Mac computer in most cases will be located within 6 feet of the 483. Since any computer should not be located in rooms that exceed 95F, you will need to locate the gateway away from hot boiler rooms. In commercial buildings or custom homes, an electrical or telecom room may be available. Since every installation is different, a suitable location of the gateway is up to the discretion of the installer. In most cases, I would suggest using a Mac Mini computer and use a Mini Mount (see attached photo) to install the Mac Mini on the wall beside the 483.

The Mac Mini can connect to a computer network using Category 5 wire (standard ethernet) or wirelessly using Wi-Fi. Wired is preferred since wireless has the potential for interference problems.

If you're interested in the gateway, have you checked out the User Switch 480 and 481? The 480 can accept inputs from a telephone dial switch (i.e. FreezeAlarm) in order to remotely switch from Occupied operating temperature to Away or Unocupied on the whole tN4 system or select thermostats. The 480 could also be tied together with a home automation system to give you 8 different scenes.

Mini_Mount.jpg (7 KB, 25 downloads)