I feel that the American public is being unfairly limited to their product choices from the leading European boiler manufacturers. There is always room for improvement in high technology and I know of only two major manufacturers that produce decent modulating boilers within the United States. These are good products. However, I believe the Euros may be the superior product at this point in time just because of what I've seen out there.

Modulating heat source boilers and hot water heating Equip.is advertised in the UK as being "The World Leader In Modulating Boiler technology",,, How can They be a world leader and still not sell their wares within the US? If they truly want to be a world leader, they must make available to the largest consumer base in the world their best heat sources available. Further, should they hope to compete for this high technology, high efficiency market share they need to accomplish this in short order. They owe it to themselves and we owe it to our precious enviornment to share the best of the best with our clients here in the US.

Should they continue to hold it's best product lines from the United States, we as discriminating installation contractors have no other choice but to go elsewhere to find the BEST equipment available for our clients needs. At this point that product is the Munchkin� boiler by Heat Transfer Products INC. (J.M.H.O.)

I for one am sick and tierd of not being able to get my hands on some of the the most advanced heat sources in the world due to the arrogance and unwillingness of the foreign manufacturers executives to get their equipment properly certified for installation on this side of the pond.

By the time a unit becomes available here in the US, there will be another better unit being used in Europe. It'll be keept there till it becomes old technology. Then they'll pawn it off to us here in the states and we'll think it's the best unit money can buy. They'll just be trying to clear more room in the wherehouses for the newer, better equipment. Sad but true, as good as the little MZ I use is, it's old news to the rest of the world.

The good news is that we finally have a couple of US owned and operated companies that are begining to keep pace with the high tech boilers being produced overseas. I still like the Euro boilers. However, I'm begining to feel that my dollars might be better spent here within our borders if the Europeans are unwilling to share their nice toys with US.

Ya snooze,,, Ya lose

ANYONE FROM BUDERUS LISTENING???

Gary Wallace


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Gary,

Have you looked at Viessmann products? Particularly the "Vitodens" boiler. Spendy, but nice stuff.

Jeff

Yes I have.

WAAAAAAY too much money for the Vie$$mann Vitoden$ 200.

That's how I got hooked up with the Monitor MZ. The MZ was able to fit the budget. The product is nice. The Vito is better. However I just can't justify the OUTRAGOUS amount of money RTS demands for these units. I have e.mailed Mr. Thethewey with regard to their pricing. His response was less than desirable. Saying "They are worth the $,$$$.00 we get for them." That's it.

Have not heard from them with regard to their Viessmann acadamy either. Even though I've left numerous e.mail's and phone calls to their HQ in RI.




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A.O.L. Intsant Messanger user name; radiantfloors

But Gary, It's not YOUR money. If the product fits the building, the customer and the budget - that's the product to use. If you can't get past the sticker price, how do you expect your customer to respond. Not every job will support Viessman technology but don't expect specialty equipment at roadside prices. Enjoy....Dan

Gary,

Have you actually seen one in operation or had the opportunity to work with one? I'm not sure what you mean by "can't get my hands on". We have finished up three Vitodens projects in the last couple of months and have three more under way. The Vitodens is, without a doubt, the best boiler on the world market. Why do you say we can't get the best here?

It takes time to get things from Europe for two reasons. First. Since the voltages are completely different here and there, things must be "Americanized" before we can actually use them. Second and more importantly, is the boiler model has to be ASME tested and OKed (basically extortion) at the cost of more than $100K per boiler model. That's mostly the reason. That, and the fact that the US market is still not ready for these kind of investments, for the most part. Things like plateless joist bay heating and high temperature heating applications are not condensing worthy systems. To use any of these condensing heat sources, heating systems need to be designed with the lowest possible water temperatures. And with all of the crap plateless joist bay that seems to be the trend, why invest in the extra efficiencies of condensing technologies?

I'm sure you know that most of the Munchkins and virtually none of the MZs are ASME rated. Commercially, they can't be used, at least here in PA.

Get some schooling on the Vitodens, Gary. Once you know how it it put together and what it can accomplish, the price objection goes away. I mean, if YOU think the price is too high, how can you offer in good faith?

hb

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Wallace:
Yes I have.

WAAAAAAY too much money for the Vie$$mann Vitoden$ 200.

That's how I got hooked up with the Monitor MZ. The MZ was able to fit the budget. The product is nice. The Vito is better. However I just can't justify the OUTRAGOUS amount of money RTS demands for these units. I have e.mailed Mr. Thethewey with regard to their pricing. His response was less than desirable. Saying "They are worth the $,$$$.00 we get for them." That's it.

Have not heard from them with regard to their Viessmann acadamy either. Even though I've left numerous e.mail's and phone calls to their HQ in RI.

[This message has been edited by heatboy (edited 12-24-2003).]

Dan,

You're right. "It's not my money." "If the product fits the building, the customer and the budget - that's the product to use." Sometimes this product (the Vitoden$) does fit the bill Dan. It's THE BEST product out there. (J.M.H.O.) I share your feeling about that.

I'm Waaaaaay past the "sticker price." of the Vitodens. How do I "expect my customer to respond?" I understand that not every job will support Viessman technology. However, You've got this post ALL WRONG. I most certainly don't expect specialty equipment at roadside prices. If you compare the Vitoden$ 200 to the MPI's MZ 25-C you will not be comparing apples-to-apples. "Roadside prices???) I am paying WAY above what conventional boiler equipment would go for for the equipment I specify. The MZ by MPI is a GREAT machine. It is getting dated though. The parent company (Geminox) has this same machine in Europe but it is a modulating boiler. The THI. The technology is there. The RED TAPE is in the US there as well. I'd be interested in comparing the Vitodens to the THI by MPI. Neither of these fine machines are cheap and neither am I.


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A.O.L. Intsant Messanger user name; radiantfloors

hb,

Yes. I have seen a Vitodens 200 in operation and had the opportunity to work on them.

What I mean by "can't get my hands on". I am refering to the nice machines that the rest of the world has access to but not us here in the US. Mainly the THA by Geminox.

The Vitodens is, without a doubt, the best boiler on the world market. No argument here.

"Why do you say we can't get the best here?"> I'm sorry. I stand corrected. The BEST is the Vitodens. What I now wonder is what equipment can compete with the Vito.< I realize It takes time to get things from Europe. The voltages should be NO PROBLEM. What? ,,, Make their fans able to use 110V/60 cycles/cec.Things can be "Americanized" rather quickly if the Euros want to make a stand. Thats what Viessmann, WeilMcClain did.

Re; "Boiler model has to be ASME tested and OK-ed (basically extortion) at the cost of more than $100K per boiler model." So what. That's a drop in the bucket for these guys and you must know it.

"The US market is still not ready for these kind of investments." That's just not true. "Things like plateless joist bay heating and high temperature heating applications are not condensing worthy systems." That's true. Regardless of the norm , there are those of us HERE in the US that are ready.

"Why invest in the extra efficiencies of condensing technologies?" You know why.

I know that "most of the Munchkins and virtually none of the MZs are ASME rated."
My question is WHY??? Politics???

"Get some schooling on the Vitodens, Gary. Once you know how it is put together and what it can accomplish, the price objection goes away." I'm willing to give it a try. When will they be contacting me?;-)

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A.O.L. Intsant Messanger user name; radiantfloors

[This message has been edited by Gary Wallace (edited 12-24-2003).]

Gary,

I did six jobs this year where I had quoted prices for Buderus with full tekmar controls. After attending a couple of classes I rewrote the bids to substitute Viessmann product (Vitogas 100, Vitorond and Vitodens). In all but one case the price came out the same (I ate the price difference on the one that was higher). I was also able to up-sell two other jobs to Vitodens 200.

The point is, if a consumer is looking for a quality product, it's not that hard to sell them on Viessmann. Obviously it's not for everyone, but there are a lot of people out there who recognize and want quality and are willing to pay for it.

Jeff

We have been pleasantly amazed at how easy the Vitodens boiler is to sell. We have several iron and steel boilers in our showroom. Viessmann and Crown. The steel boiler is the bi ferral. Once you go through the features of the Vitodens, and compare the physical sizes of the equipment involved, customers seem to have no problem springing for the Vitodens. We think that the Vitodens just about killed any market we may have for a high end iron boiler, like the VitoGas 100, which is truly a fine boiler. The market is ready to respond to high tech equipment. I would like to see Monitor bring over their modulating equipment.

I don't think that technical issues like switching voltages and adapting to different markets has proven to be as easy as some may think. It seems that even small changes in either hardware, software or market area can result in very new learning curves. It is good to have a progressive manufacturer like Viessmann that has the $$ and the technical wherewithal to adapt their equipment to different markets.

We can see that Viessmann struggles to pull all of this off cleanly. In Germany, they take you on a tour of their museum. Viessmann is a 3rd generation boiler manufacturer, they done a lot of things. It's easy to see the evolution in their products. It will be a long time before we see that kind of product manufactured in the US. It would take a decade to grow the engineering talent.....and they would lack the experience. American boiler manufacturers would never spring capital to develop the tooling.

I wouldn't dismiss the ASME ratings as purely political. There are reasons that the Vitodens qualifies for ASME ratings and the munchkin does not. (Like a single pass, laser welded heat exchanger vs squashed tubes, o rings and straps) We need ways to differentiate different classes of equipment.

Finally, about the market....I expect that Viessmann sells more boilers in Poland than in all of North America. If you have a market for your production capacity.....you might look carefully at new investments in capacity.....especially if you face unfair and unwise steel tariffs.

Dale Pickard
Radiant Engineering Inc.
Bozeman MT
pick@radiantengineering.com

Has anyone seen a " ROTEX BOILER ? "

It is a Fully condensing boiler from Germany . It is oil fired . Its castings are aluminum and stainless steel.When we fired it we were amazed at the mild warm flue temp and that the flue was made out of a "type"of soft plastic.
It has an oil burner which is directed downward and shoots its flame at a bottom refractury.Tcover on gives it a very clean look and you could have it in your living room it looks so good(if you could get that one past your wife). When the cover is off it looks like a keg of beer(that is why all plumber would love this boiler) I call it the "Budwiser Boiler" due to its cool look.
I brought three over here and still have two left,one is going to go in our new building for show and interest.
When I fired it I had the man who runs the Hartford Civic center Mechanical department there.He was amazed at it and could not believe how clean the exaust was because it is a BLUE flame burner.The burner ( I will try to spell) is a (Alkaklerckner) burner,hope you could read that.
It is also a low mass boiler.

I'm pretty sure all the Munchkins are now ASME labeled. I toured the HTP factory and saw the Munchkins HX's on the "official" ASME test stand.

They were being hydrostatically tested to something like 300 psi!

Show me a cast iron boiler that has to meet that criteria for ASME!

Apparantly, since the HX is also used as a DHW unit in other countries ASME decided it should be tested to something like five times the typical dhw pressure of 60 psi.

Possibly the same test and pressures as ASME rated storage vessels?

My numbers may be off but the point is ASME required some outragously high pressures on the Munchkin HX. Far beyond the protection offered by the 30 psi relief valve they leave the factory with!

Ah, the politics and cost of ASME, indeed.

By the way I never realized ASME deals only with the pressurized vessel component. You could send that boiler out the door without any gas train, or electrical safeties and it could wear the ASME badge. Seems odd. Guess that falls under UL or someone else.

hr

Hot Rod,

Are you saying that HTP was singled out for especially difficult treatment to get thier ASME rating?

I knew that ASME ratings were entirely hung up in the pressure vessel. Considering the differences in design and manufacturing between the VitoDens and the munchkin heat exchanger, it's no wonder that Viessmann didn't have any difficulty getting ASME rated.

Dale

Dale

Just seems odd that ASME required such elevated pressure testing for a 30 lb relief boiler! I think a 30 lb cast boiler requires a 45 psi test.

Be interesting to know what Viessmann is testing their HX's to in order to get ASME.

There was a rumor once that the Munchkins HX was built by the same factory that builds the Viessmann HXs. This came from folks that actually were at the manufacturing facility.

Does V ever sub out manufacturing? Or maybe they own this stainless fabrication facility?

Hard enough keeping track of who owns what in the boiler and water heater world in the USof A much less the world market Seems like one giant holding company moving various pieces, sometimes.

hot rod

Well Hot Rod,

Let me start by saying that I don't speak for Viessmann. Neither am I necessarily completely informed on this subject. Anyone else who knows better or more completely should not hesitate to correct me or add to what I am saying. That goes for the Muchkin too.

That disclaimer aside, I have to say that the Munchkin and the Vitodens are completely different animals with only some superficial resemblences. Viessmann has been known to sub out some specialized manufacturing, like their evacuated tube solar collectors, the tube of which is manufactured by ThermoMax of Britain. (I understand they built an entire plant just to handle V tube production).
However, I also understand that Viessmann in one of the worlds largest uers of Ti stabilized 316 SS. You see it in their storage tanks and in all of their condensing boilers including the Vitodens, the commercial Vertomat, and several other boilers that they market in Europe. Anyone who has been on their factory tours in Germany, has seen them fabricate all manner of shapes, including HX coils from rolls of flat stainless sheet.

The Titanium stabilizes the weld zone against chloride attack..
I don't know of what alloy the Munchkin is built.

Viessmann is well known for their stainless fabrication abilities. They recently sent us a Videotape that shows them bending the rectangular coil that makes up the heart of the Vitodens. Again, they are able to take flat sheets of SS, fold it into a rectangular tube, laser weld it together, precisely place dimples to hold the coils apart, and then continuously bend it into a continuous, short radius coil. The entire HX, coil and enclosure is laser welded together. This takes some real engineering and manufacturing wherewithal. I am quite certain that Viessmann manufactures the entire VitoDens and that they would not provide parts to other manufacturers. Viessmann also manufactures the award winning matrix burner as well as the control electronics and software used in the Vitodens. None of that is farmed out.

The munchkin HX by contrast consists of round tubes that have been squashed to an oval shape and bent into single loop hairpins such that the ends of the tubes project out of the burner case so as to be inserted into headers where they are sealed with O rings and secured with bands that wrap around the entire assembly. This results in an assembly that requires less sophisticated technology to manufacture but represents a HX that is less efficient but more complicated and failure prone. By forming a complete rectangular tube VM can control how much surface is exposed to t he flue gases. Precisely forming and locating the dimples that hold the coil apart allows control over the velocity of the flue gases and pressure drop across the coil sections.

I understand that the parts that make up the Muchkin are manufactured by a French company, Gionnani, (sp??) and that this company makes parts for several boiler manufactures but does not make boilers themselves. I understand that Viessmann did pay a one time patent license fee to Gionanni for the use of the ideas behind the coiled cylindrical HX design. Purchasing the good ideas of others is nothing to be ashamed of. VM of course, incorporated that simple idea into something of their own, difficult to imitate, fashion.

Anyway, I'm tired of typing. Suffice to say, there is really very little similarity between the Vitodens and the Munchkin.

Dale

I find it curious that the French are so involved in the production of high tech stuff for the heating indutry. What parts of the HTP's Munchkin are made in France?

Aren't we Americans boycotting the French? They really haven't been a positive ally for us in along long time (globally speaking.) (JMHO)

Gary Wallace

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A.O.L. Intsant Messanger user name; radiantfloors

Thanks for the info, Dale. Sounds pretty real and believable!

Actually Gary, most of the Munchkin as I recall is imported and assembled here.

I say thumbs up to HTP for searching the world for components already proven and working, instead of reinventing the wheel. I've heard that company that makes their HX's manufacture something like 300,000 HX's per year. Guess they have the bugs worked out by now!

I understand Honeywell USA didn't know that Honeywell gas valve, HTP found in Belgium, even existed! Talk about a global company!

I think a lot of these small condensing low mass boilers hitting the market, started out as DHW instantanous units in Europe. I don't think any one uses storage tank type heaters over there. As a result they are more up to speed on the design and manufacturing of this type of exchanger.

I can't imagine any US manufacture going to that expense for tooling and production for a few thousand boilers.

Viessmann, of course, being the world leader both in quality and price! And I admire them for taking it past the limit. (wasn't that an Eagles song?)
Few would argue that they are at the top. I've yet to meet a Viessmann ONLY dealer or contractor however.


Personally I'm not looking for a 100 year boiler, or even a 30 year.

So how good is good enough? If the Munchkin, or MZ, or others live their 15 year warranty running as efficiently as when they were installed, relativly troublefree, is that so bad? I'll bet the next "best thing" in heat generators comes along before then

And what's wrong with the French, anyways? The French are always there when they need us

hot rod

Everyone

I agree with giving Heat Trans Products credit for being willing to push the envelope and market a high efficiency, high tech boiler in the American market. I worry for them though, as I have come to consider that it's not an easy task. I think that this market requires some significant manufacturing skill and some substantial capital. Viessmann has not had the easiest time adapting their European designs for the American market.

Many of us remember the GlowCore, which was designed and built from scratch by an American company with lots of capital�.MTD, a large manufacturer of lawn and garden equipment. The Glowcore of course was a disaster. Boilers are not lawnmowers. They couldn't have been more wrong about the design. High press drop HX requiring huge pumps, high press drop on the air side too, requiring large combustion blowers. Burners that were prone to fouling and clogging, controls that created all kinds of nuisance call backs. The last one we sold actually caught fire and cooked it's own wiring, fortunately causing it to shut down. What a mess.

As to HTP searching the world for parts, I think that in many ways the world is a small place, and that designs for condensing boilers that are technical and economically viable are not as ubiquitous as one might think. I had an interesting conversation with a representative of an American boiler manufacturer who had spent time looking for a European condensing boiler that they might private label. I was told that there is one Swiss company that is responsible producing the cast aluminum HX's used in that type of condensing boiler, like the Weil McLain I was also told that VM was not interested in any private labeling of their equipment, like the Vitodens.

I am pleased with the MZ's presence in the marketplace. Pete Caruso and Monitor deserve a great deal of credit for being the first to pioneer this market. I am much more impressed with the MZ than I am with the munchkin. It has a long track record and is built in it's entirety by a real boiler manufacturer that takes responsibility for the entire product. Though there are things about the MZ I don't like, like the use of aluminum water ways, if I didn't sell Viessmann, I would be selling the MZ.

So I don't know that there will be increasingly better ways of burning fossil fuels in the future. Maybe fuel cells directly to electricity. I think that it is very questionable is the current crop of equipment will last 15 years without more maintenance than we would like. Clearly, the VM product has the best chance. I think that it's important to have these things last as long as possible. They are more expensive than more traditional but less efficient iron boilers.
In economic terms, the increased cost needs to be paid back and provide the return that justifies the investment. In real terms, the energy embodied in manufacture and the energy and materials embodied in the installation needs to be paid back and produce a similar real return. If these things don't happen, we are just chasing our tails.

With respect to the French, other than the Citroen, which betrays a truly foreign design mindset, I have no problems with them. : -) In addition to the Citroen, without the French, we would not have the Rights of Man or the Statue of Liberty and we would have had to look elsewhere for the financing of the American Revolution.

Dale

Just wondering how much longer we will have to wait for that awesome THI machine to make its way into the North American market?

Ya think Pete could smuggle one of them suckers over the border on his way back from Geminox next time he's there?

Gary