My problem is a poping sound from the warmbord itself. I have a new home with this product, as it was being built and the heat turned on, the poping started. The people from warmboard said "air in the lines". The lines were purged, and purged. The noise was still there. Now we have hardwood down on some of it and friends and neighbors call it the Kellogg House because of the snap, crackle, and pop!!! Where we have tile down there is no noise, which leads me to think air is not the problem. Anyone with any thoughts on how to silence this noisy floor? Please let me know.

It's not the Warmboard - in all likelyhood its the control strategy and water temperature being sent during a "cold" start. PEX expands quite a bit with sharp temp rise. I'd bet a different control strategy would make your Warmboard as quiet as the preverbial church mouse.

I've never installed it, but am becoming a fan, so take this with a grain of salt...

Standard pex expands at a rate of 1"/100'/10*F rise. If your boiler does not have outdoor reset control, your water temps will fluctuate dramatically, causing expansion/contraction.

Was the tile set in mud directly to the Warmboard? This can "hold" the pex in place. I don't believe that is the standard method, but...

While there were probably things that could have been done better (pex-al-pex), the cheapest/easiest fix at this point would be to add an outdoor reset control as Dave suggested. WWW.TEKMARCONTROLS.COM will get you in the right direction. Your contractor SHOULD be familiar with them.

We at Warmboard are very sorry that you have a noisy radiant system and would like to help you solve your problem. It is natural to suspect that because the noise resonates from your hardwood floor, which has Warmboard under it, that it is the Warmboard that is causing the noise. As Dave Yates commented this is unlikely. There are thousands of homes with Warmboard as a component of their radiant system and only a handful of them have noise associated with their radiant systems. In fact one of the most common comments from our customers is that their system is, as Dave Yates said, “quiet as a church mouse”. Because noise is so uncommon with Warmboard, this situation suggests that other variables in you system may be at work

There are a number of manufacturers of air eliminators precisely because air can cause noise in any hydronic system, which is why we suggested air elimination as the first and easiest variable to check off the list of possible problems. Another common source of noise is tubing expansion. While all tubing expands and contracts with temperature change, not all makes noise when it does so. Some tubing has an EVOH oxygen barrier on its outside surface. When tubing expands, initially the tacky nature of this EVOH barrier sticks to the channel in the radiant panel. Eventually the force builds up sufficiently to break the tubing loose and it slips a tiny amount, in the process making a clicking noise. I have heard one engineer for a tubing company describe this a “stick/slip” noise. This noise has been around a lot longer than Warmboard.

Several tubing manufacturers have sought to alleviate this problem by putting an additional coating of waxy (non tacky) Polyethylene over the EVOH. Many systems have no ferrous components to protect from rust and as a result use non barrier tubing which again has a waxy surface not prone to “stick/slip”. There has been tremendous growth in our industry in the manufacture and use of PEX-AL-PEX tubing, which also has a waxy (non tacky) outer surface. This growth is driven in part because this type of tubing is the least likely to make noise. Even among the EVOH tubes, some seem more prone to this noise than others, and the likelihood of them making noise can be all but eliminated when the tubes are well bonded into the aluminum channels with silicone. Because good bonding in combination with our press fit channels usually prevents movement, this helps to explain why most EVOH tubing in Warmboard does not make noise.

While all this may be informative, your problem is real and needs to be addressed. The question is, assuming you have “stick/slip” noise, what can be done to mitigate it? There are a number of control strategies that can be used to lower the water temperature in your system, which will make your system operate closer to what is called a constant pumping system. The vast majority of European systems are designed for constant pumping and we see this trend growing in the US. Not only does it mitigate tubing “stick/slip” noise, it provides more constant and even floor temperatures, which means greater comfort and lower water temperatures save on energy bills. Because we did not design or install your control system we will need to know how it is currently configured before we can suggest improvements. Please call Paul Izenstark in our technical services department at 877-338-5493. He is an RPA Certified System Designer and I am sure you will find his advise quite helpful.

Dear Sleepless in Michgan,

Is your Brand and type of PEX on the approved (quiet) tubing list at the Warmboard website? Who sold it to you? Were they aware of the "list"?

Just wondering.

Did the installers use silicone in the slots before the tubing was laid? If not the tubing will expand and make popping sounds. Also, what temp is going into the floor? If there is no mixing system, ie 100 degrees or so, this will also create problems.

L

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Originally posted by SLEEPLESS IN MI:
My problem is a poping sound from the warmbord itself. I have a new home with this product, as it was being built and the heat turned on, the poping started. The people from warmboard said "air in the lines". The lines were purged, and purged. The noise was still there. Now we have hardwood down on some of it and friends and neighbors call it the Kellogg House because of the snap, crackle, and pop!!! Where we have tile down there is no noise, which leads me to think air is not the problem. Anyone with any thoughts on how to silence this noisy floor? Please let me know.

quote:

he noise resonates from your hardwood floor, which has Warmboard under it, that it is the Warmboard tha

One consideration is the material you are warming above the subfloor. Dimensional stability is a key factor that you must marry in your thought process along with mixing valve strategies. How fast you send that warm water to that area of the floor and at what temperature (mixing valve)all play a part. As far as solid wood flooring goes, 1/4 sawn wood is more stable than plain sawn. The individual wood species each have their own dimensional stability characteristics as well. Less stable species combined with plain sawn lumber and or unacclimated planks, can make for noises.
Look here for a comparison of wood species and relative properties:
http://www.highlandhardwoods.com/chart.html

Hi Johno,

I've got the same problem with my WarmBoard installation. It is not the hardwood or the WarmBoard itself that makes the snaps and crackles. It is the tacky surface of the oxygen barrier on the PEX. It is the "Stick/Slip" noise that Terry Alsberg discussed above. The WarmBoard company published a list of approved brands and types of PEX in the spring of 2005. This was shortly following the discovery of the "Stick/Slip" noise in their product. Unfortunately, there were numerous installations that predated this discovery that used incompatible PEX. Michigan's WarmBoard distributer at the time, sold several homeowners their own brand of oxygen barrier PEX to go with the flooring orders. It has a horribly tacky surface. I'm sure that all of those homes are as noisy as mine. IT EVEN SCARES MY DOG!!!

Live and learn.